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Azure DevOps Podcast

Message from Jeffrey Palermo: Howdy.  Welcome to my podcast.  I hope it helps you ship software more quickly and more reliably. Through the topics and guests, I hope your life is made easier. Let me know what topics would be helpful for you.

Podcast sponsor: Clear Measure We are a software architecture company that empowers our client's development teams to be self-sufficient: moving fast, delivering quality, and running their systems with confidence.

Nov 9, 2020

James Grenning joins the podcast this episode to discuss test-driven development.


James is one of the original authors of the Agile Manifesto. His specialties include test-driven development and embedded software going deep in C-based embedded technologies. At his company Wingman Software, he coaches and trains developers to deliver more. With deadlines to meet, quality goals to meet, and customers to satisfy, a developer’s day can often be packed to the brim with little time for investigating better ways to develop — this is where Wingman Software comes in. They offer training, coaching, consulting, and workshops for developers and teams looking to accelerate their progress and reach a new level of performance.


In this episode, James speaks about where test-driven development is today, how it has changed over the decades and his key advice for transitioning to TDD. He also shares some fun tips, from ZOMBIES guiding you through the process of TDD to the secrets of how to become a highly productive team or developer!


Topics of Discussion:

[:38] Be sure to visit AzureDevOps.Show for past episodes and show notes.

[:46] About The Azure DevOps Podcast and Jeffrey’s offer to speak at virtual user groups.

[1:11] Clear Measure is hiring! Be sure to check out the link in the show notes.

[1:22] About today’s episode with James Grenning.

[1:43] Jeffrey welcomes James to the podcast!

[1:56] James speaks about what it was like at the turn of the millennium when conversations were just starting and the Agile Manifesto was only an idea in a few people’s heads.

[6:45] For developers and teams that want to be highly productive, how does James explain the arguments that pit speed and quality against each other?

[10:00] For new developers and those who have never done test-driven development before, when would James recommend that they start? And how should they get started? Why should they get started?

[18:32] How ZOMBIES can guide you through the process of test-driven development!

[20:38] A word from Azure DevOps Podcast’s sponsor: Clear Measure.

[21:10] James shares his thought process around managing dependencies.

[23:09] The three critical skills of refactoring.

[24:21] Why James thinks mob programming and paired programming is really powerful.

[24:40] James highlights a key piece of The Agile Manifesto.

[25:45] How should a developer be thinking about the process of pulling in a new library?

[31:00] For developers who have either inherited a piece of software or have been working with a system for a long time, what would James say is the most effective way to start transitioning to test-driven development?

[39:33] James gives some parting words and advice about TDD.

[41:17] Jeffrey thanks James for joining the podcast.


Mentioned in this Episode:

Azure DevOps

Clear Measure (Sponsor)

.NET DevOps for Azure: A Developer's Guide to DevOps Architecture the Right Way, by Jeffrey Palermo — Available on Amazon! — Click here to download the .NET DevOps for Azure ebook!

Jeffrey Palermo’s Youtube

Jeffrey Palermo’s Twitter Follow to stay informed about future events!

The Azure DevOps Podcast’s Twitter: @AzureDevOpsShow

James Grenning’s Blog

James Grenning’s Blog: “TDD Guided by ZOMBIES”

James Grenning’s Twitter @JWGrenning

Wingman Software

Wingman Software: Test-Driven Development for C or C++ Training | Remotely Delivered via Web-Meeting

The Agile Manifesto

Managing the Software Process, by Watts S. Humphrey

Extreme Programming

History: The Agile Manifesto

Kevlin Henney: “Old is the New New”


Want to Learn More?

Visit AzureDevOps.Show for show notes and additional episodes.